(Editor’s note: Variety’s interview with Sony Interactive Entertainment CEOs Hermen Hulst and Hideaki Nishino took place on October 16, before PlayStation announced on Tuesday that it would close Firewalk Studios and Neon Koi. SHE could the CEO of the studio business , Hulst, would not make himself available for further comment or to clarify his previous comments about layoffs in this story before publication.)

This spring, Sony CEO Kenichiro Yoshida made a splash when he picked two PlayStation veterans to lead Sony Interactive Entertainment: Hermen Hulst and Hideaki Nishino.

Finally, the presence of co-CEOs is a potential recipe for tension. Nishino and Hulst speak in their first interview since taking office in June diversity about how their partnership works. They argue that the size of the company behind the “God of War” and “Spider-Man” franchises has grown to the point of requiring two operations, each requiring specialized leadership: a platform business led by Nishino and a studio business led by Hulst .

“These are not co-CEOs; “There are two CEOs for the company,” says Nishino. “Hermen runs his thing, I run my thing, and then we get together to talk about how we can grow the business.” Nishino acknowledges the tension inherent in this structure, but presents it as a healthy dynamic: “The successful growth of the company also brings with it a conflict: how we influence each other or how we want to make sacrifices or not.” It is a balance. It’s an opportunity and a risk at the same time.”

Hulst estimates that they spend 80% of their daily time managing their individual areas. “It’s really nice to have two developers at the helm. We both have engineering degrees; “We’re both pretty hands-on,” he says, adding: “It takes a lot of trust and we’ve been working together for a long time.”

The two-in-one box CEO arrangement is rare, but there is evidence that the right duo can make it work. In early 2023, for example, Netflix appointed two CEOs to steer the streamer – and so far, Ted Sarandos and Greg Peters have driven impressive growth and stock market highs.

Nishino became head of product at SIE (formerly SCE) in 2016, then head of the Platform Experience Group from 2021 until he became CEO in 2024. Hulst took over his position as boss at “Horizon” manufacturer Guerrilla Games, which was acquired by Sony in 2005 and later became head of PlayStation Studios.

It’s an unpredictable time for PlayStation. SIE’s Bungie studio laid off more than 200 employees in July. In September, the company shut down its live service game “Concord” two weeks after its August 23 release, and earlier this week shut down studios Firewalk, maker of “Concord,” and mobile-focused brand Neon Koi. PlayStation is also below the price of $699 for the PS5 Pro console, which is scheduled to be released in November.

At the same time, PlayStation earned praise for the new platformer “Astro Bot” and regained trust among fans with the announcement of the “Ghost of Tsushima” sequel “Ghost of Yōtei”. The department is also excited about the second season of HBO’s mega-hit adaptation of the PS game “The Last of Us” and Amazon’s new “God of War” series.

Hulst and Nishino have adopted a “show, don’t tell” leadership style at PlayStation. “It’s important that we communicate our strategy,” says Hulst. “But at the end of the day, I spend a lot of my time with the creators.”

Nishino is of the same opinion: “For me, the product, the content, should be the forward-looking things,” he says, selflessly adding: “Who is the guy behind the scenes doing this?” It doesn’t matter.”

Read more from diversityBelow is the interview with Hulst and Nishino.

Since the PS5 Pro is launching very soon after this story was published, I wanted to ask about the timing of this compared to the actual next-gen device. Are you waiting for Nintendo to make the first move with a Switch 2 announcement before you get there? And what is the plan for the launch of Pro and to be clear about who the product is intended for and who the actual next-generation device is intended for?

Nishino: That’s why we made Pro in the last generation. We learned a lot there. When we sold the PS4 Pro, 20% of customers actually got the PS4 Pro in addition to the PS4. It was high-end, it was premium class. So there are potential users who purchase such devices. Interestingly, it wasn’t just about highly engaged users; In fact, new users are coming to PlayStation to get PS4 Pro too. So we started working on the PS5 Pro before the PS5 was released – for us it was another five-year project. So there was a conversation about whether or not we wanted to do another Pro. But the main thing was that there are technologies that will allow us to grow up in three or five years. Therefore, innovation and technology progress occurs faster in a modern world. Phones are updated every year, PCs are updated every year. I don’t think we would release updates every year, but there are things we can put together to bring the best things to the gaming console segment. So that’s the vision.

I think it’s great to see people talking about it. As in year three, the discussion around the gaming console usually slows down, so people shift the discussion more to the next generation, or something like that. But we’re happy to see that most dedicated gaming users are interested in the PS5 Pro are, and I’m pretty sure that new users will also get the PS5 Pro. If this is the PlayStation you want, then this is it. That’s why we designed the generation at this moment. We design everything with the idea of ​​staying ahead of ourselves. It’s not like we just take the next step and don’t know what two steps are ahead of us. This is not how we work because we need to ensure that the 10-year generational cycle continues.

How do you balance that on the development side: knowing when certain devices are coming out and what titles you want to announce or not? I’m really excited for Ghost of Yōtei next year, but I feel like you haven’t announced another really big game that’s a must-play on the PS5 Pro. Are there any big title announcements coming soon tied to Pro or next-gen?

Hulst: We spend a lot of time on portfolio planning and the platform plays a big role in that. So when we were planning in the early stages of the PlayStation 5, it was really important to get really high quality titles for the PlayStation 5 right from the start. And that has served us well and put us in the position of the PlayStation 5, which is really, really good.

I think the other thing I can say here is that teams love tinkering with the hardware. They love the privilege of being involved in the hardware. And hardware includes not only the boxes, but also the peripheral devices. And teams like Team Asobi at “Astro Bot” are a prime example of how, early on, they helped design the hardware functions of the controller in addition to some schematics and created demos for them. And in fact, in some cases, these demos develop into a whole product that becomes a big product in its own way. So we are involved in that. This is a lot of fun for us. The same applies to PS5 Pro. Both demos you saw are from PlayStation Studios. The teams are very proud of that. Of course, we are involved in all hardware planning efforts. It’s a symbiosis on the hardware side. What can you do with it? And here is the feedback. Can you demonstrate it? And all this to inspire third parties, which of course represent a huge source of income for the company, to inspire what you can do and what the quality benchmarks are for these short presentations. This has always been part of the work of PlayStation Studios and always will be. And then there’s the search for additional revenue streams or opportunities that can be leveraged in film and television, merchandise, location-based entertainment, whatever.

Nishino: I just wanted to say that the Pro is not next generation. It’s still in the PS5 generation. PS5 Pro will do everything PS5 can do. So it’s a consumer decision. If they see a need for more visuals, they will get it. We wanted to give the consumer an option within the generation and that’s exactly what we’re doing.

When it comes to adaptation, which has obviously gained a lot of momentum at PlayStation over the years, with The Last of Us Season 2 – possibly Season 3 after that? – and TV shows “God of War” and “Horizon” are in the works. Where are these projects right now? As for the games, are you considering releasing new games in these franchises alongside these shows?

Hulst: The HBO series “The Last of Us” fundamentally changed the credibility of game-to-TV series adaptations. We learned a lot from it. We’ve learned that it’s really important to include the original creators to ensure your experience remains very authentic. As teams continue to be engaged, we are applying these learnings across the board. At PlayStation Productions we currently have 10 productions in the works: “The Last of Us”, “Twisted Metal” and several others that we are very excited about. I think we will be more and more careful and rigorous in our franchising in the future. So we talk about adaptations, but adaptations are about taking the game and then seeing what else you can do with it. We really want to build from the ground up – like we originally tried to do with Horizon, by creating this world and this storyline – and how do you tell stories in that world across different mediums? That’s why we create franchise teams and portfolio management teams to work with teams that do this right and find different ways to tell stories in the worlds we create.

They all experienced rounds of layoffs earlier this year, similar to those that hit the entire gaming industry in 2024. But Microsoft recently had new layoffs, you all took Concord offline, and you had additional cuts at Bungie. What is the current outlook for PlayStation and expectations of studios and games closing in the future?

Hulst: I’ll say a few things about it. It is our duty to review our resource planning and ensure that we are running a sustainable business. That’s part of being a CEO. We never take this lightly because we know these people personally, they are very important to us and the teams and the good working atmosphere. But yeah, we had some layoffs. But it’s also important to recognize that PlayStation Studios is now a much larger organization in terms of content than it was when it started. It has grown enormously. And that’s organic growth, which I think our existing teams have pursued quite aggressively, as well as through mergers and acquisitions. Organization and employment are much larger today than, for example, five years ago.